index
brother
travel002
spnl meningitis 006
parents
childhood
poetry
#
000 M. C..: [I have just turned to recorder on, and Margaret is asking about its status. Margaret is
beginning to tell about the death of her brother George who died before she was born]
Is on or off?
L. L. : On, it's on.
M. C. : Well, he, he came to Seattle...
L. L. : uh-huh, your father
M.C. : ... by the Pacific Coal Coast Train. It came down in the, uh, daytime, and went back at
night. And, while he was down here on a buying spree, he had ta, taken his little 3 year old
son with him. He was very proud of him.
And while he was here, he must, must of, uh, caughten a vims, I don't know if it's a virus
or not, uh, meningitis, spinal meningitis. And his his, on the way going home, his father
bought him, a, an apple to eat, and they, uh, he thought that maybe it was the apple that
caused his difficulty, but it wasn't. The learned with an autopsy that he had died with
spinal meningitis he had contracted in Seattle.
L. L. : How, how long was he sick before he died?
M. C. : Well, I don't think it was very long. I don't think it was very long, but I don't know.
L. L. : Urn, did your parents ever talk about George?
Oil M. C. : Well, it, it my father was terribly. My mother said she almost lost him because of the
situation. Well, it was sad, that, that's it.
[see slide 23 for a picture of George as a young child]
014 L. L. : okay
[Margaret finishes her family biography.]
M. C. : [Ending the information on the family biography, Margaret says:] You'll have to get with
Don on a lot of these things. I, I have pretty good memory, but I don't like to give out
dates unless I'm pretty sure.
L. L. : That's all for the biography, I think I have enough.
M. C. : That's all.
L.L. : Urn, I'd like to...
M. C. : The you can proceed.
L. L. : Yeah, I'd like to ask questions about your childhood again.
M. C. : About who?
019 L. L. : About your childhood.
M. C. : my childhood?
020 L. L. : yeah. Um, when you said that you wrote a, a poem about living in a mining town.. .
M. C. : Oh, here, here's all this stuff. That, uh... [Margaret points to a pile of papers she has
collected for the interview]
[See photo copy 7 for poem]
27
index #
L. L. : What inspired your poem?
M. C. : For some unknown, reason, my hearing must be off today.
L. L. : Oh, what inspired your poem?
M. C. : Which one?
L. L. : The one about, the one about living in the mining town, the Christmas poem.
Black Dmnd 023 M. C. : Oh, what inspired. The, uh publisher of the book asked me to write something, and that
was shat I wrote because I could see living as they did, or we did, at Black Diamond how,
uh, how, how precious that life was at that time. And you never recall life like that again.
You can see the was houses which were usually an extension of the house. We were
fortunate, we had ours inside and not outside. And, uh, you saw people beings so intimate
with each other. They relied on each other. During sickness or illness or, uh, anything of
that nature, a death in the family, friends gathered 'round. They cooked for each other,
they went into homes. I, I can remember them even going into a home and, uh, and sitting
up all night with the person, that had, uh, was deceased. Uh, little things that meant so
much, and they, I noticed my parents that carried out those same friends, they were just
like si, brothers and sisters. They had that same communal feeling of the welfare of each
other which we lose in the large city. Sometimes you don't even know your neighbor or
the people down the block. And it's to bad because, uh, getting along with other people is
so important in this world.
L. L. : Do you, uh do you remember, urn, a time that you ever felt stifled by being in such a small
community?
AYP045 M. C. : No, never. Because, you see, we had the opportunity to get out. We visited people in the
country, we came into Seattle for the AYP fair—Alaska Yukon Pacific fair—and I can
remember being on the University grounds, you know, when I was 8 or 10 years old
because we fostered reading, we fostered, uh, my parents did, of course. And I fell in line.
That, uh, that, I never felt stifled. In fact, I've never been stifled about anything. But that
was the part of my growing up in the home. We were allowed to express ourselves. We
were allowed to give our opinions on things, And we, we were allowed to make out own
choices. But when we made them, they were our choices.
L. L. : Do you remember ever making a choice that you really regretted?
regret 058 M. C. : No. I never regretted it. Never.
expression 059 I, uh, I always felt I was an important part of the fainily. And I think that that's
important to this day. Children like, well even grown-ups, like to know what's going on in
the family. You don't keep it hush-hush. You explain it, you, you talk about it. You get
relief in so doing. And it builds up your own ego. It's good for you.
parents 064 L. L. : So your parents were veiy open with you?
independence 065 M. C.: Very open. We could, uh, we could experiment and if we thought to do, um if we though
it was a good idea, you could do it, but if you did it and it was a failure, life is fall of
failures, and you just have experienced failure. And that's good too.
L. L. : Can you think of a failure that rings to mind?
M. C. : Do I think of what?
L. L. : Can you think of a failure that you remember?.
28
index #
failure 068 M. C. : Oh, I, all along the way you have all kinds of failures. I never had a bicycle. But I not, I
never asked for one either because it wasn't anything, uh, particularly, I hiew if I had, I
had to push it up a hill for one thing. No I could, that's one thing that debating does for
you.
debate 074 And that debating was the best course I ever had in school. I don't care what anybody
says. You're on your feet, you have to learn to think, you have to learn to act, and it's so
important.
L. L. : Urn, what about your brothers and sisters, do you remember certain games that you used to
play?
games 078 M. C. : Oh, I do. My sister always wanted to play horse. That was the day when little girls like us
wore aprons with, aprons with strings tied with a bow in back, little, you know, bib. And
she always, and if we had company, girls down, like from Black Diamond that came down
to the, well, we called it the ranch, uh,she always wanted to play horse. And they we
played ANTI-I-OVER, you know. There was a little cottage there, and, w, that' the
cottage we always threw the ball over.
pets 087 And it was fun when it went in the water, you had to retrieve it or get the dog to bring
it back, if you could. And, and we had 2 dogs, they were precious to us too. One was a
shepherd dog and he had a blue I and brown eye. that always bothered me because I
wasn't too sure if he could see out of both of them or not. And then we had a little fox
terror. And he was the one that was always lively.
animals 094 So, we had, we had, uh, animals to play with. And we always had horses, 'bout 6, a
draft team and a team that went with the horse and buggy. So there were plenty, always
plenty to do.
L. L. : What about fighting? Did you ever argue or get in fights?
fighting 096 M. C. : Fighting, well it's only natural to fight, but I don't remember any of the fights. So they
couldn't have been really important.
L. L. : Did you parents ever get into, did your parents ever get mad fr, from you fighting?
parents 100 M. C. : No. Now the only type of fighting we did like that would be a night we would be fe, we
had pillow fights. My sister and I went, and, we, they were mostly with our dad. And he
was the instigator. So, you see it wasn't that, uh, uh, it wasn't the serious kind. He was
always, he always had time enough to play with us no matter how tired he was.
L. L. : Um, what about discipline in general in your family?
M. C. : I don't remember too much discipline, uh, uh, of any sort. I, I can remember my mo, my
mother being a little doubtful about going places or doing things, but, um, my father was,
uh, I would say quite strong in his belief that, that, uh, children has characters of their own,
and they helped to build their own character by what they saw and what they did. I can't
remember much in the way, uh, of reprimand.
L. L. : What about, do you remember your, your school companions?
M. C. : about?
L. L. : ...your school mates, your friends?
friends 018 M. C. : Well, we didn't see, it, it's a queer thing, but I didn't see, I didn't play with my school
mates at home because they lived too far away. But I did go do, down the road and play
with, uh, other people, other friends that we had. That's the first time that I ever leaned to
eat tomatoes. I never cared for tomatoes at home. And I went down to play with a girl
that lived about 3 miles down the road. And while I was there, she and I played during the
morning, and her mother called us into lunch, and low and behold, she had a bowl of sliced
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discipline 107
index #
tomatoes. And I was hungry, I ate those tomatoes, and I've loved them ever since. [laugh]
It's funny the things you remember when you get older.
L. L. : Do you remember the girl, your friend?
M. C. : Who she was?
L. L. : um-huh
M. C. : Yes, I do. Her last name was Stoll, S-T-0-L-L. Gertrude was her first name.
L. L. : Have you herd about her since then?
M. C. : How,a queer thing was, about 4 years ago, they took us on the bus out to Auburn, Now
Gertrude lived in Seattle for a long time. And all the time she lived in Seattle, I never got
to see her once. I knew where she was because she worked in an office in one of Don's
buildings. But do you know we were in the Auburn Museum, and looking at all the things,
and this woman came up to me, and she looked so familiar. And I said, "Are you Gertmde
Stall?" And she said, "Yes." And I was so surprised. At that time she had retired with her
husband and was living out at Redondo Beach. And here I came from Seattle, she came
from Redondo, we met back in Auburn.
L. L. ; What did you talk about?
G. R. Valley 149 M. C. : Well, we didn't talk for long 'cause I was on the bus. You know, that was limited time.
But we did talk about the good times we used to have up in Green River Valley. Next.
family 151 L. L. : Okay [laugh]. Urn, how did your family spend time with each other? You said your father
was very busy?
AYP 153 M. C. : Yes. Well, if we went someplace, we were all out, we all went together. That was the
main thing, like going to the Puyallup fair for the day, or going to Auburn days, which
happened every year, or going into Seattle to the AYP.
L. L. : The, uh, what is that? The AAYP?
M. C. : That is Alaska Yukon Pacific fair.
L. L. : Oh, that's right.
M. C. : And now, wa, wa, wliat year was that? I don't know. 18 hundred and or 19 hundred and, I
don't know. It must have been 10 or 12...
L. L. : What do you remember about the fairs?
M. C. : Beg your pardon.
L. L. : What do you remember about the fair?
M. C. : I remember the log building on the University of Washington campus. And I remember the
Indian exhibits there. But not much else because I don't think I could have been more than
about 6 or 7 years old. I probably bremember the rid in more than anything else [laugh],
going so far.
L. L. : What about when you, you said you moved out of the house when you were 14 with one of
your...
30
index
moving out
family
169 M. C. : Well, I didn't, you can, I, I, I use that expression "I moved out of the house," I really never
did, but 1 never went back to live for any extended period of time afterward because I went
to school, and they I went to summer school. .
173 L. L. : How, how often did you see your parents when you were in high school?
M. C. : Oh, I saw them maybe once a week. They would drop by and leave something for me, or
my mother'd do some washing or sewing or something else always. We were very close. I
was always very close to my mother, more so than my sister was closer to my father 'cause
she liked horses, and shed used to train, if it was a, a new cult, she'd train the horse, that
type of thing. I never cared for it; I'd stand back of the fence and watch what was going
on.
L. L. : Did you miss your parents?
M. C. : Did I miss them? Well, I knew where they were. And I knew that they were behind me
always. So, it wasn't a case of missing them. I really never got homesick. But I was
always, to this day I like to go home. And my mother said when I first started to talk, if
when took me to see, to visit somebody, the first thing I said was, "Let's go shome, lets go
shome." And one day, I said that to my grandmother, and she said, "Well, go home." And
I went. And it was about 2 blocks, and 1 could have, I was about 3 years old, but they
found me when T went home. I went home.
L. L. : Um, what about going to puberty, were you living at home or were you living...?
M. C. : Now what was that?
L. L. : ...going through puberty, like going from adolescence...
M. C. : I, I'm not getting that.
L. L. : What about going into adolescence?
M. C. : Oh
L. L. : like going through puberty...
puberty 197 M. C. : [Margaret laughs] No wonder I didn't get it. I don't know when I've been there. [laugh]
menopause 199 Isn't that queer, you know, I was in and out of it, and that reminds me of the doctor
that once asked me, had you pill, and he was the kindest old man, he was just adorable.
And tlie nurse asked me, uli, uh, uh, when I had the change of life. And, uh, uh, I said, "I
don't know; it just came and then it was gone." And the doctor said, "Oh, that's not
important anyhow." [laugh] In other words, he was willing to forget it, it wasn't that
important. It wasn't, it was only one of those questions on a printed form. Now, I, I ne, I
never did keep track of those things. I didn't keep track of when T broke my leg either. T
can think about when it was, but that's all right.
puberty 211 L. L. : Do you remember having your first period?
M. C. : No, I don't remember. You see, I treat all those things as so natural, that I don't have to
remember it.
L. L, : Did your parents ever, did your mother ever talk to you about it?
M. C. : I think my older sister talked to me about it. And then probably my mother did. But she
talked to me about it first.
L. L. : So your family was open about issues like...
31
index
friends
death
friends
conflict
elderly
218 M. C. : Oh very open. To this day, 1 can talk to my son about anything, or 1 can talk to, uh,
because my mother always talked to me about anything. Some people, it's easy to
converse with them, that others. Now at noon, something happened here that tells a great
deal, I think, about people.
226 One of the ladies here, her daughter is dying of cancer, oh, only a limited time. And
she came into the dining room crying, you know, trying to keep back her tears and wasn't
able to. And li invited her to sit at out table 'cause there was a vacant place there and a
vacant place here. And, the women that sits on my right, although she's a college educated
woman, she really has never learned how to, well, talk to p, how to talk to people really.
She talks about golf or she talks about something, you know, that was important to her.
But she, the warmth and feeling, not that's where I think religion comes in. This woman
was raised in a Catholic school, and, and she is Catholic, and I'm amazed to think that she
has such a hardened view toward people with difficulties. And, and, and it was hard for me
to see her talk in such a cmde manner to someone whose heart was breaking. That bothers
me and 'course I know I'm very sy, sympathetic. And, and I think you grow up with that
kind of an atmosphere, and it's a good atmosphere to have because people will seek you
out as a solace in times of trouble. And that's something I learned from this small
community.
248 My mother's friends, they were so close to each other just like sisters. They wept
when they had trouble, and they rejoiced when they went to a picnic. And they always
loved good music. There's something that's binding between people, and I wonder what
these people had missed who have been so callous toward others. And what they can say
and what they can do.
256 Now, there was a lady that lived above me here. And she let the water run all night.
And it, naturally, came down through the [light] fixture and put 2 inches of water all over
this room. Now that's the second or third time. But rather than coming to me and saying,
"Oh, I'm so sorry that I did su, such a thing." The house sent her a bill for cleaning up my
place as well as her place. And she didn't like it one bit. And she came and brought the
bill down. She didn't come in because I invited her in to see what was clone to begin with
'cause I would if I, uh, uh have done such a thing would have been very disturbed. Now,
that was the difference between us. And she was very casual about it. I asked her if she'd
like to come in and see, you know, because there was, you know, naturally, a tremendous
amount of damaged done, and I said, " Wouldn't you like to come in and see it?" And she
said, "I would not!" You know. So, but she passed me in the hall with the bill and she put
it in my face like this, and she said, "You're responsible for all this." Well, of course I
wasn't responsible, but I didn't say anything.
L. L. : Was she serious when she said that, or was she joking?
M. C. : Oh now, she was serious, dead serious. But that was all right because I knew how she
probably felt so penned up inside, you know, that you say things sometimes I guess that
you wish you hadn't.
285 So,but I, uh, uh, uh, it's amazing to me that so many elderly people can afford to live
in a place like this and, at the same time, they never learn to, to, uh, enjoy what you might
call the freedom of God's beautiful world and what there is in it. Now, I have to say,I
have to give a tribute to a teacher tliat 1 have known for many, many years. And, we began
and very humble beginnings back in 1924, that's a long time back. And she passed away 2
weeks ago. And I was asked to give a tribute at our Delta, Kappa, Gamma meeting on the
22nd of this month. And I'm going to go back, and I'm going to tell these people, many 1
none of those h, ever had to live in the extreme circumstances that we did. We lived in a
teacher's cottage where there were 4 teachers, 2 high school and 2 elementary teachers
living in the same cottage. And it was, it was pretty bare, there was, you know there was,
but 1 never had a better time in my life because there were 2 things that we all had an ~~
interest in. One was in mother nature, the elements, the beauty of nature. And the next
one was poetry, we all loved poetry. And poetry went through the air like oxygen.
L. L. : What are some of your favorite poets?
32
index
poetry 3)1 M. C. : Well, now, now when I say poetry, now this isn't the grand masters of poetry. This, uh,
sometimes they were jungles that we all made up, uh, and sometimes it was only 2 or 3
verses of a famous poet. And to this day, I still remember quotes, little quotes which we
did.
Black Dmnd 323 Uh, we opened, the, uh, kitchen door to look out, and there was a great big window
there, and that window looked out on Mt. Rainier, 'course you weren't too far away from
it when you were out a Black Diamond, And, every morning, whoever opened that door
would say, "Oh, what a beautiful morning, oh, what a wonderful day." You know, you'd
start out on your own, and it kind of set the air for the day. And the, one of the, this girl
that died, her grandmother had a cookbook. And in that cookbook, on every pages of
recipes, there was a, a quote from some, uh, poet. And, and of course, they were kind of
silly, but they pertained to the food. Did I tell you this when you were here before?
L. L. : no
quotes 335 M. C. : Well [laugh], one of the quotes said, and you know, I, I haven't read it, but I've stored it
away for so many years because it's, I think it's fiinny, "Man is something like a sausage,
very smooth upon the skin, but you never know exactly how much hog there is within."
[laugh] And another one of those had to do with your health, "When nature calls at either
door, don't attempt to buff her, but go attend her calls at once, or health is sure to suffer."
That's the type of thing. But, but, uh, you see, there was no recreation in the town for you;
it wasn't that kind of town. Maybe they had a movie on Saturday night.
L. L. : Was think in Black Diamond?
Black Dmnd 354 M. C. : yes. But to this day. Black Diamond is known for its friendliness, its bakeiy, and its
museum, those 2 things. And if you had to be known in a community for something,
what's nicer? Well...
[see slide 7 for a picture of the wood oven at the Black Diamond Bakery that Margaret
remembers as a young child]
L, L. : When you, you were talking about the teachers living together...
M. C. : yes
L. L. : . ..where, where was that, was that in Black Diamond?
M. C. : yes
L. L. : And how old were you?
M. C. : Oh goodness. I'd graduated, you know, and I'd already had one year of teaching., I must
'a been about 20, 24, 25. But it was a wonderful time.
[see slide 25 for a picture of Margaret and her I 923-1924 4th grade class]
L. L. : Could you tell me more about that?
teaching 365 M. C. : Well, it was so interesting. And, and the way I got to room with this, uh, Mar, Margaret
McNamara was her name. She'd always gone to parochial schools. And she'd used to
make fun of the kids, you know, she'd always say, "Oh, the white kids stood in the
sidewalk and said we, they had to line up according to their height. And, she said, "First
come the baby.." uh, let's see, how did that go, something about, well she had a little
poem, a little ditty that went along first baby elephants and then the kangaroos, 1 don, I
can't remember the beginning of that now. But then they were a lot... But I inherited her
as a roommate because I had, uh, uh the previous year, this was her first year of teaching,
and, uh,and I had previously roomed with her aunt. Oh [phone rings] excuse me, please.
[it was Margaret's good friend Helen on the phone.]
33
index
friends
dating
...she's about...
L. L. : That was Helen the one you told me about?
M. C. : yes
L. L. : that you lived with?
387 M. C. : Uh, it was she. And uh, the minute I said, "Right now I'm busy," she hung up right away.
[laugh] She didn't let me say good-bye. Where were we? Oh, I had roomed with her
aunt, you see, and tliat was a wonderful association, but I've always enjoyed my
roommates. I had a lot of them. And, uh, uh, uh so when Margaret came to apply for, uh,
the position that her aunt was vacating to get married, why, why, uh, 1 inherited Margaret
as a roommate, which was very nice, 1 couldn't have had a better one. But I've always had
a good roommate.
L. L. : That's go, um, I'd like to go back to when you started dating, do you remember that?
M. C. : Uh, oh goodness, yes I do.
404 L. L. : What was, do you remember your first date?
education
M. C.: Well I guess it was my first date, he died not long ago. [laugh] Uh, in high school, and I
guess I was a sophomore, and at that time, that was during, uh, remember it was just about
the end of World War I, and, uh, uh, there was at that time in small towns, they had uh, uh,
oh, entertainment for the soldiers and sailors. And he was in high school, and so was I.
And we were in the same class because lie was senior president and also senior body
president. Not that I thought I was getting a catch. I never looked for one. But, uh,and,
and we had gone to this, uh, dance in honor of the service men. And that was at Liberty
Hall in Auburn. And that was interesting, and, uh, of course I saw him at all the football
games and the fu, and that was enough of that. Th, there was, we went to the university,
and uh, well, I went to, ha> one of the first dates I had was when they had, mn, they were
having mu, they were having a freshman ball at, oh I don't know where it was held at the
university at that time, but, uh, and T recall that so well because they said there would be
piped in music. And you see, that was when the radio was just being introduced, and, but
it wasn't very successful for a dance, I can tell you that because it sputtered and sparked
and everything else. And we made fun of it, and that's, that's enough of that. I guess I
went with him maybe all during that year at the university, and, and previously a year in
high school. But 1 never thought too much of dating, sometimes girls think more of dating
than they do of anything else. That wasn't my...choose...
L.L.Did dating ever get in, in the way of school?
M.. C. Oh, no, I never, I never let anything like that get in the way. Well, I haven't told her about
this session with you.
L. L. : Helen?
M.C. : ha, ha, no. Well...
462 L. L. : What about, umm learning about human reproduction or sexuality, did your parents talk to
you about that?
M. C. : Most of what I learned, I learned wen I was studying P.E. at Bellingham. And then you get
good books on it, very good. Now there must be excellent books from what I hear from
what I sometimes read or hear over the radio because if it's a good speaker, and they're
speaking, uh, on...
34